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Sydney_Iron 10:13 Fri Nov 10
Remembrance day, WTF!

As a proud Englishman living abroad im shocked at some of the reports coming out of the UK.

2000 Police in and around Central London to stop any trouble, 24-hour guard on the Cenotaph to protect it from attack.

Veterans told DON'T wear medals, military berets etc on the way to Remembrance services across the UK.

Poppy sellers attacked; War memorials vandalized.

This stuff is unbelievable, WTF is going on!

UK,Dogs etc

Hammer and Pickle 9:14 Wed Nov 15
Re: Remembrance day, WTF!

*well organised it,

(punctuation malfunction)

Hammer and Pickle 8:59 Wed Nov 15
Re: Remembrance day, WTF!

Religious faith offers the keys to vast resources of a moral kind, some emotional resources and, when well-organised it, offers plenty of access to material resources as well. There is no doubt about this and I don't think anyone here is trying to deny it.

What the problem is refers to the connection of the modern nation state and organised religion. And it seems that many have really not learnt the lessons of history and the real world in this respect. They want to mobilise the masses by religious doctrine while holding onto the institutions of the state. Meanwhile, they deny the vast weight of evidence showing how dangerous and stupid this is and are, I believe, mostly motivated at the lowest level of moral, emotional and material resources. They are fanatics, and it is up to the normal people and the adults to let them have their religion but make sure they can never, on any account, gain access to the state.

Mike Oxsaw 7:02 Wed Nov 15
Re: Remembrance day, WTF!

I suspect that religion provides enough of the absolutes in life that people crave to keep them from anxiety.

What? You don't think people crave absolutes (and can't abide (being seen as) not knowing or undecided?

Look at any of the longer threads on this site and you'll see the need for people to always be (in the) right manifest itself many times over; politics (US & UK), Brexit to name but two subjects. And even the subjects themselves are limited to those with only two possible positions.

The world WAS created in 6 days; Jesus DID rise from the dead; Mohammed DID ride to the heavens on a unicorn; if you ARE good in this life, you WILL be rewarded in the next...

It's as if people are shit scared of not knowing something; while everything is known they can just get on with life comfortable in the fact that, should something unexpected happen, there's always "somebody who knows" who will take care of it - just like that strange being who descended from above and magically solved all your problems when you first entered the world.

If that is the case - IF - then societies problems really began with the dissemination of information away from a select few and people started to form their own conclusions on what was known (by themselves) at the time, and they then filled in the gaps to satisfy their cravings for absolutes.

Darlo Debs 12:33 Wed Nov 15
Re: Remembrance day, WTF!

I assume all Rios unless Wils is saying you can only have a happy society within certain religions.

Found this though which I thought rather interestung;

''There may be a few atheists in foxholes, but a new study suggests that in societies under stress, those who are religious outnumber -- and are happier than -- their nonreligious counterparts. Where peace and plenty are the norm, however, religious participation is lower and people are happier whether or not they are religious, the researchers found.

A paper describing the research appears in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology.

The study analyzed data from the 2005-2009 Gallup World Poll, a survey of people in more than 150 countries that included questions about religious affiliation, life satisfaction, respect, social support and positive and negative feelings. The researchers also looked at 2009 Gallup polling data from the U.S.'

riosleftsock 12:21 Wed Nov 15
Re: Remembrance day, WTF!

When we talk about depression within religion, are we talking about any particular religions, or are all faith systems causative?

Darlo Debs 12:20 Wed Nov 15
Re: Remembrance day, WTF!

Just mentioned Durkheim as he pointed out why we might question this apparent link.between religion and reduced suicide risk.

I am.not throwing the institution of marriage under the bus they can and do work but then high divorce rates do cast some shade on just how much. It melts your heart though when you see little old couples looking after eachother Working out in the community I saw a lot of that. One gentleman who refused to let his wife be looked after in a home but was struggling with the demands of her care ( we helped him)was probably my favourite ever person I'd worked with.

Wils 12:00 Wed Nov 15
Re: Remembrance day, WTF!

Darlo Debs.

Not sure what your point is with Durkheim. My understanding is of his work is that he demonstrated religious affiliation reduces suicide risk. Maybe I am misunderstanding you here.

Do I care that people's experiences of finding themselves outside of religious social norms negatively affects their mental health? Yes, just as much as I care about how how religious people's mental health is affected from finding themselves outside of secular social norms. Finding oneself outside of social norms is not good for your mental health either way. Religion is not at fault here. Get rid of religion you still have social norms that not everyone will conform to, they just wont be religious social norms.

And of course women finding themselves pressured to remain in abusive marriages is tragic. It shouldn't happen. But throwing the institution of marriage under the bus is not the answer as it causes more distress and suffering than it cures.

Darlo Debs 11:46 Tue Nov 14
Re: Remembrance day, WTF!

Firstly as I have already mentioned we don't know whether it's the decline of religion or increase in other factors that contributes to increases in problems with mental health, have studies been done to assess the impact. of both?

Also while you claim.religious societies to be more conducive to positive mental.health you neglect to.look.at the negatives. I.mean you probably don't care but how good is the mental.health of those on the outside of those social norms you revere? ....or how much pressure is there on women or maybe even men to remain in marriages that.arent happy? or are women to be pressured into having kids they maybe don't want because their religion forbids contraception and abortion?

Are the studies you are citing done with an.already inherent bias towards the advantages of religion? The study of Suicide by Durkheim.is definitely one to.bear in mind when looking at the relationship.between a religious society and suicide rates

Wils 11:27 Tue Nov 14
Re: Remembrance day, WTF!

Darlo Debs,

No one is suggesting everyones individual circumstances with depression aren't different. You will find religious people with depression (I know more than one) and plenty non-religious with it too. But the evidence that religion gives some inoculation against depression is quite substantial: https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/religion-spirituality-and-mental-health

There can be many reasons for that. A lot of them secondary. Religious people have lower rates of family breakdown, they are more likely to have children. And children growing up stable secure families (which religion has a role in promoting) are more likely to succeed at school and go on to form stable relationships themselves. All this is well known.

There are plenty of people hostile to religion who don't suffer depression and lead successful lives but that's less common than it is amongst the religious. So if you have a society that is predominately irreligious you will see more depression and all the other societal problems that lead from the increase in family breakdown.

So yeah, you're a non believer and it's all sky pixies and the other stuff. But to think we, as society, are in some way improved as religion declines is simply not the case. That does not mean therefore God exists or you should start turning up a church every Sunday, but it does mean we are all the poorer for religions decline and there is nothing to be smug about.

Hammer and Pickle 11:02 Tue Nov 14
Re: Remembrance day, WTF!

Come on saddo.

Let’s hear what you’ve got to say on how the secular order cause depression.

goose 10:58 Tue Nov 14
Re: Remembrance day, WTF!

riosleftsock 10:51 Tue Nov 14
Re: Remembrance day, WTF!
"being cool and intelligent don't hurt no one either."

They seem to be like kryptonite to you though.



Hahahaha well played.

Hammer and Pickle 10:55 Tue Nov 14
Re: Remembrance day, WTF!

We were discussing the secular society and mental health. It has been proposed that secular society is actually causing depression and I would like you to say anything sensible to back this up so I can believe you are right.

Darlo Debs 10:53 Tue Nov 14
Re: Remembrance day, WTF!

The single parent thing is very much dependany isn't it. I mean.if a person has become a single parent through bereavement or because they were left by someone they loved the yes depression is likely to be present but if a person is escaping an abusive relationship or one that has broken down for some other reason then it'd probably be a lack.of income that'd be the source of depression.
Single parent families aren't a homogenous group.and only a neo Conservative would hold then.in anyway responsible for increased levels of depression unless you have specific evidence for that. As for drug use well depends in using the drugs and who is getting away with.it I guess
Nobody ever seems very keen on.finding the dealers for rock.stars and politicians...and Gove looked well.happy danci g off his tits.

riosleftsock 10:51 Tue Nov 14
Re: Remembrance day, WTF!

"being cool and intelligent don't hurt no one either."

They seem to be like kryptonite to you though.

*day of week noted*

Hammer and Pickle 10:46 Tue Nov 14
Re: Remembrance day, WTF!

curiosity comes from openness, just a basic emotional resources for healthy living.

being cool and intelligent don't hurt no one either.

riosleftsock 10:44 Tue Nov 14
Re: Remembrance day, WTF!

Debs, you can study the stats, I'd suggest the inverse relationship is probably more likely than say the man-made global warming scam.

If you're looking for social causes, I'd suggest single parent families, social drug use, the necessity of dual incomes for home ownership and the promotion of unrealistic and unnecessary material consumerism are probably bigger factors.

riosleftsock 10:39 Tue Nov 14
Re: Remembrance day, WTF!

Not sure curiosity is an emotional resource. Kindness and trust are absolute christian tenets, but you don't know or understand these, otherwise you wouldn't drunkenly threaten to kill people on a football forum.

Darlo Debs 10:37 Tue Nov 14
Re: Remembrance day, WTF!

Rios there may be a role for tbe demise of widespread religion in the decline of mental health but I'd argue its much more to do with issues relating to material hardship. Isolation and the pressures put on us by the society we live in esp through the prism.of social media

Hammer and Pickle 10:34 Tue Nov 14
Re: Remembrance day, WTF!

Depression is an effect of a lack of access to basic emotional resources like curiosity, kindness and trust. The idea that religious dogma is going to cure that is perfectly absurd.

riosleftsock 10:29 Tue Nov 14
Re: Remembrance day, WTF!

The number of people reported to be suffering from depression increases every year, as does the number of people receiving treatment either by pharmaceutical or therapeutic.

A sustained effort to remove christian teaching from our schools is an obvious contributory factor as were the restrictive covid measures.

If you are unaware of this, or choose to continue to believe that your system of faith in big government and the rules based international order, you are probably beyond help.

Darlo Debs 10:00 Tue Nov 14
Re: Remembrance day, WTF!

I find it an odd peculiarity that ministers who get fired still feel.it necessary to.write resignation letters
Not something we'd do in any other profession is it?

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